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Today's Urban Design Observation: Is This Screw-Up the Designer's Fault or the Contractor's Fault?

When people have aesthetic visions and no follow-through

By Rain Noe - March 6, 2018

in Urbanism

In the last post we looked at the accidental street furniture that Siamese connections make. Buildings that have them are required to provide signage labeling them. These signs are usually simple and workmanlike.

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But the designer of this ground-floor business somehow convinced the client to go for more, and spend on individual letters that would be adhered to the surface of the building, adding that little bit of visual punch.

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It probably looked fantastic in the rendering. Then you get up close…

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…and see the installer did a shit job. I'd argue the exposed adhesive makes this look worse than the standard signs.

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Also, look at how dirty the white lettering has become. Did the designer think someone would come out and wipe these off each day, really going the extra mile to get into those angles?

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Who would you say is to blame here? The designer, who I'm guessing had no idea how these letters would actually be attached, or the installer, who either takes no pride in their work or did not receive the proper training?

I definitely blame the designer for spec'ing out white letters that would perfectly catch and trap grime and dust. As for the installation, I suppose there is a third alternative, which is that the designer recommended it be installed by a competent subcontractor, but that the client figured they could save a few bucks by having a handyman friend tackle the job.

In any case, this is a prime example of someone envisioning something cool, without considering the real-world factors that would get it all the way there.

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Dan Ross

6 years ago

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"But the designer of this ground-floor business somehow convinced the client to go for more, and spend on individual letters that would be adhered to the surface of the building, adding that little bit of visual punch."

How do we know this? I would say it's the client's (gasp) fault for even humoring the designer. The sign company I work for would never let this happen for this very reason and we'd do everything in our power to persuade the client against having routered white letters in this location.

Vinyl is obviously suspect to vandalism. At our shop, we probably would have made a shallow cabinet type panel (about 1/2" to 1" deep) as Rich Eng was describing—all aluminum, with routered sintra (expanded pvc) letters stud mounted via 10-24 studs to the panel, anchored with 10-24 nuts on the backside of the cabinet. The cabinet would be attached with 1" angle aluminum and companion clips for ease of removal for cleaning, etc. Entire thing painted to match lower portion of storefront, so it'd basically look like it was embossed. Also, having the grey would show slightly less dirt.
Less muck, no glue or silicone involved. All aluminum, no rust stains.

But that's all expensive!

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- Rain Noe
  
  Dan Ross
  
  6 years ago
  
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  "How do we know this"--Dan, how else do you propose that this happened? I don't believe that an NYC landlord/building owner just spontaneously thought of adding a non-standard feature to his/her building that would not increase his or her profit; to me this signage smacks of an uninformed designer going "Hey, I've got a great idea."
  
  I like your idea of having the panel removable for cleaning. Funnily enough, back in the '90s, these standpipe fixtures would often protrude from a brass plate, and the building managers would have them regularly polished--not for profit, but just as a point of pride. I'm kind of sad that that went away.
  
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  - Jeff Bianco
    
    Rain Noe
    
    6 years ago
    
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    Rain,
    
    Siamese connections are still made in brass, bronze and stainless. The difference between wall mounting and freestanding is usually made based on piping space availability on the ground floor.
    
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richard gould

6 years ago

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As with most things, it’s the process that failed. An effective process accomplishes goals. Quality is easily thwarted by poor processes.

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- Rain Noe
  
  richard gould
  
  6 years ago
  
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Brian Godfrey

6 years ago

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Probably not a "handyman friend". More likely some employee of the contractor who wasn't a sign guy and didn't care how they looked because 15 minutes after he left he'd be caulking a seam a mile away on another finish up job.

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Chris Haar

6 years ago

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Oh it's great to see so many sign industry folks piling on here! (Represent, sign-nerds!)

Here's my take: I'm guessing this is not the only set of letters like this on the job site. They're probably every where in various sizes as part of a cohesive sign package. But here's how I think this went down.

1. EGD firm specified this treatment because it doesn't look like the standard stand-pipe signage. They said "Oooo... yes. Dimensional Letters here" Showed the client examples, doubled-down on marketing speak about differentiating from the other buildings, and they bought into it after the first meeting.

2. Awarded Fabricator did one of two things. 1. They showed this in their drawing without calling attention to it, and didn't highlight how it would be adhered/fastened to the building. OR, 2. They did question it, but got shot down in the process for fear of potentially losing future work with this client and design firm. This might have happened internally between Sales and Design/engineering at the sign fabricator, or externally with sales/project management and the design firm

3. Signs get installed. This set gets put up with gorilla glue/liquid nails because of vandalism concerns. Maybe tape/silicone wasn't working well enough on that wall finish? Who knows. Stud mounting doesn't look like an option.

Now. Who's at fault? Everyone.

Original design firm is at fault for 1. asking for letters here when a plaque would serve better. 2. Either not reviewing the supplied shop drawings from the signage vendor, not questioning how they'll be attached, or not requesting drawings in the first place.

Sign contractor is at fault for trying to slip past a terrible install method, and not calling out the poor choice with a better alternative.

Lets talk about signs more often, Rain!

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Brad Johnson

6 years ago

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Typical application method is with 3M VHB tape, and possibly clear silicone since this is an exterior application. They would have needed to prep the surface prior to application though.

I guess this got the job done, but I wouldn't have been happy to pay for it.

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Josh Leedle

6 years ago

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Designer.
The designer was too focused on aesthetics, and while in a rendering I am sure it presented much better than the standard signs. However, as with many cases in the industry, perhaps too much focus was placed there and not enough on implementation and use cycle. As mentioned it was the designers responsibility to understand how the letters would be applied, and what difficulties and issues could arise from the multitude of application methods these urethane sign foam letters can be used with. The second glaring issue was in-use maintenance... the necessary cleaning. Even when used on an interior sign these letters build static and attract dust, lint, and general grime. So lets put them outside at about 12" above a presumably busy street. Its a case where sometimes the most "Designed" solution might not be the best. Though I do appreciate the thought and attention to detail in considering even the design of the code required labeling, just the execution and use-cycle needed more consideration.

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Juan Cano

6 years ago

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I am a bit confused if there is a color coding and a shape defining the purpose of these pipes, why do they have to identify them with names? For the firefighters that don't know what they are? Aren't firefighters pretty much the ONLY ones who know what these are?

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- Rain Noe
  
  Juan Cano
  
  6 years ago
  
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  My guess is it's to do with city regulations, doubling up for the sake of fire safety (or maybe a bribe from a city-contracted signmaking company).
  
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Ken K

6 years ago

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It is mysterious, not least because the letters are so well aligned and spaced, which would never happen if the local handyman did it.

Since it's new, and since it's in your neighborhood, why not stop in and ask? Track down the story. That would be a fun bit of reporting.

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Prescott Perez-Fox

6 years ago

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Could be another party to blame — the City itself in the form of building regulations. I can easily imagine an obscure code that specifies that white letters must be used if the building material itself is darker than 55% grey (100 being pure black), or else attach a sign with a white background only. So yes, it would be more subtle and sleek to use some kind of low-profile laser engraving, but it might incur a big fat fine from the Dept. of Buildings. for riding roughshod over low-vision persons, or not being visible from X feet away.

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Matt Levine

6 years ago

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looks like the letters may have been installed properly but, with the wrong adhesive... Then as they wore out and fell off they got gooped back on with some sort of yellowing construction cement.
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- Rain Noe
  
  Matt Levine
  
  6 years ago
  
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  Matt, I should've pointed out: This is a new renovation on Broadway. The signage as you see it is less than a couple of months old.
  
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  - Matt Levine
    
    Rain Noe
    
    6 years ago
    
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    ah, I see. Just a bad job. I do signage and have applied dimensional letters on stuff. I only recommend adhering them to smoother more finished surfaces and on signage up out of the way of high traffic areas or at least out of tampering reach. I also have my secret selection of clear setting and flexible adhesives. Temperature expansion and contraction defeat lots of adhesives.
    
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Dan Ross

6 years ago

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To add another perspective:
If this is a city requirement (getting into politics of sign installation and permitting), the tenant that owns this business would have to have these pipes marked and would probably go directly to a sign shop and thus deal with the designer or a rep for the shop—NOT a design firm. I really have no idea who would be responsible for that sign though. I'm guessing since they're all different, there's no standardization.

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Rich Eng

6 years ago

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I worked in a sign shop before, and definitely this is shoddy workmanship. The standard way to attach letters like this is with a paper template, industrial double-sided tape and silicone.

Alternatively, they could have just had vinyl lettering applied onto the surface, or the acrylic letters attached to another panel, in the shop, that would as a whole, be PL-ed to the inside of that framed panel.

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- Rain Noe
  
  Rich Eng
  
  6 years ago
  
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  Yes, they could have had vinyl lettering applied to the surface, but they opted to go with the raised letters and eschewed pre-mounting them to a panel. Why? Aesthetics? This didn't happen by accident, someone made this decision and it resulted in what you see.
  
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