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The PayPal Controversy Over Destroying Counterfeit Objects

By Rain Noe - January 5, 2012

in Object Culture

This is what happens when you rip The Clash off on eBay

This is what happens when you rip The Clash off on eBay

As product designers we're supposed to play a role in keeping objects out of the wastestream. Consumers play their part too, with sites like Craigslist and eBay providing a vast network for vintage and antique object reallocation among enthusiasts. And while Craigslist runs on sneakernets and cash, eBay's financial engine is PayPal.

In a rather sad story currently making the blog rounds, PayPal has a mechanism in place to deal with counterfeit objects and refund issuance. After a recently disputed transaction involving a $2,500 antique violin—the seller claimed it was real, the buyer said it was fake—PayPal told the buyer they'd issue a refund, upon providing evidence that they destroyed the object in question. The buyer complied.

Hit the jump to read the tale, as told by the seller.I sold an old French violin to a buyer in Canada, and the buyer disputed the label. This is not uncommon. In the violin market, labels often mean little and there is often disagreement over them. Some of the most expensive violins in the world have disputed labels, but they are works of art nonetheless.

Rather than have the violin returned to me, PayPal made the buyer DESTROY the violin in order to get his money back. They somehow deemed the violin as "counterfeit" even though there is no such thing in the violin world. The buyer was proud of himself, so he sent me a photo of the destroyed violin.

I am now out a violin that made it through WWII as well as $2500. This is of course, upsetting. But my main goal in writing to you is to prevent PayPal from ordering the destruction of violins and other antiquities that they know nothing about. It is beyond me why PayPal simply didn't have the violin returned to me.

I spoke on the phone to numerous reps from PayPal who 100% defended their action and gave me the party line.

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Kenny

12 years ago

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I will be reading the Paypal contract very carefully before I list another item, I'd suggest that others do the same.
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paul

12 years ago

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The Schneier quote I was looking for earlier:

"The idea is for me to paint this stuff on my valuables as proof of ownership. I think a better idea would be for me to paint it on your valuables, and then call the police."

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paul

12 years ago

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This story is amazing. Reminds me of something Bruce Schneier said a few years ago, about this magic stuff you could spray on your stuff to tag it as yours: his reaction was, why not tag someone else's and claim it was stolen from you? I can't find the original but that was the sense of it, IIRC.

What's to stop some griefers buying up old stuff, claiming it's fake, and being reimbursed by eBay/Paypal to smash it up? Where is the benefit to this vs just sending the violin back? They could claim they are placing the market but call me skeptical as their expertise.
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Anthony B.

12 years ago

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Paypal is to business as junk food is to nutrition. Convenient, highly profitable and absolutely awful for you.
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stephe

12 years ago

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I got burned selling NOS sneakers on ebay. Paypal assumes that all sellers are scammers.
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Gary

12 years ago

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Of course, this technique can also be used by the buyer if they get a case of "Buyer's Remorse", and want to back out of the deal. It's too bad, as there are just as many buyers that suck, as there are sellers selling absolute crap. Paypal needs to step up, and protect the interest of *both* parties.
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Duane Brown

12 years ago

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Not sure how much of a role something like this plays in the value of other antiquities.. I could be trying to sell them in the market and the less on the market I have to compete with the more I am likely to get. So I simply buy others and destroy them with no financial retribution.
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MB

12 years ago

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And King Solomon said "Cut the violin in half, that way you can each have part of it."
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Jason

12 years ago

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I'd sue the buyer and PayPal for loss and destruction of property. Was the buy qualified to make the determination if it was fake or not? Was PayPal? Just because it's their policy does not give them blanket protection and immunity. Sue them both.
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